If the answer for you is "No" and you don't like that, well, what are you going to do? There is always a manager who understands the underleveling of Office and old-Windows (hello Sinofsky - promos for all who stuck around regardless of merit!) Unless you plan to stay in the same org the rest of the time at MS. The way to get to a higher level is to increase the scope of your contributions.In our group (somewhere in STB), L63 seems to begin with having at least 2 reports. Great topic. No manager can bail you out of "bad brand jail" past L625. These turtles gets promoted eventually just based on time spent at MS and because they werent doing anything wrong even though they dont really meet CSP criteria. YES, life is unfair.At the end, mastering 'soft skills' will help anyone: even someone at 59. Happy hunting. How long do people usually sit at L62 in MCS? Even with all good intentions, they can even be ineffective mentors (although I still highly recommend the mentoring program, as long as you change your mentor every year). ;) I have one thing to add that might help some. below 63 one has low influence and above 64, it is more strategizing and less execution.Overall, my experience has been that promotion is the effect of results and good work. The job is the same, just the levelling differs. In this scenario, the senior director might have more responsibilities and be in charge of a larger part of the organization than a typical director. SQL is one of the groups that has consistently delivered quality and growth. and The point here is that I have more than once seen folks that were very talented and super stars get bumped for someone less talented but more vocal. However, the results show that the vast majority of dev/test/pm will make level 63 and in a reasonable timeframe. They took credit for work done by others (#2 helps).Seriously, they only way to separate the wheat from the chaff in this company is to allow to interview without notifying the manager. One question a manager will think about before promoting you is how many times he had to clean up after you pissed off someone else - especially if it's someone on another team. He identified the common denominators in becoming an expert in practically any field. Only 1 of the 4 [sic]s were legitimate. I've been at the same level for 3.5 years (since I joined MSFT), and while I spent three of those in a group where almost noone at all got promoted (a group which has since essentially dissolved), I'm concerned that my level stagnation reflects poorly on me, even though I've been the major contributor on products that have earned 10x my total compensation package for MSFT. That's not going to change in six months (which I learned). Mini, as good as your writeup is, there is too much emphasis on this level promo business in MS, and I have seen my fair share of people that have been burnt by it. There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. Satya Nadella. The team that gave me the Dev Lead title made a bet on me, and they were not disappointed, since I worked hard to prove myself at that title (despite having to wait a little longer for a level promotion). You want to test more cases than he does, you want to build something that draws users to what you're doing more than to his.Having part of the bonus be for how the team succeeded relative to the other teams might focus competition towards the competition and not exclusively on co-workers.Add up the review scores of each team member and rank teams. I have only required two strategies. Or - are they going to take the easy path and sack people in Europe and Asia? They are 100% star material. And the place where MS has the most non-contributing overheads is Redmond. Biggest key for me was knowing when to leave a bad management situation and team. If only your manager knows you then it is unlikely (at least on paper) that you will move beyond L62. L63 takes a bit longer but is also fast. But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around?"1. Level 61 - overseas. And I appreciate you screening out the non-productive whining posts. Are you ok with what you hear? My boss even made mistakes. Eng, Go to company page You must ask for a promotion when you think you are ready. Help Your Manager (and your team) Be Successful: No one has more influence over whether you get promoted than your immediate mgr. You don't deliver products on your own -- you're usually building one system, one set of components that together make one successful (or unsuccessful) product.You can always, always find ways that make yourself, your manager, and your immediate team much more successful. You've made 3 mistakes. I sympathize with folks who feel they have been shafted however to quote a cliched saying: the common factor between you and all your problems is you. After that, I was given a team that was in trouble quality wise 6 months before shipping. ask around for a good mentor or go to our internal mentor site to be matched with a mentor http://mentor/Mentor/user/mymentoring.asp. You should leave. Great Post! then you're really off in the weeds.Think of the guy in the other company, the guy who is building something that competes with you, with your team. Taking the easy escape out like that, you are more likely to get into the same situation at other companies. Learn how this feature works. For example, see http://www.intropsych.com/ch07_cognition/learning_curve.html. Kudos to you for posting it. Working with high EQ allows you to collaborate better. Whether your manager is hardcore or touchy-feely, you need a bulldog to promote you or you ain't goin' nowhere. This is the first year I have spent more than 2 years at a level (L61) and still not gotten a promotion. I heard that promotion budgets are significantly reduced at below 65 level. It's because you were playing catch-up to Apple, and playing Machiavellian games with the media companies instead of working on the issues that your customers were complaining about.Vista is still unreliable, unsecurable, and a massive pain in the ass to use on a daily basis. an ex-manager used to tell me, if the org needs him to sweep the floor, he would ensure that he would be the best sweeper in the world (no offense to my janitor friends, just an expression). Microsoft employees make an average base salary of $208k & a total compensation of $280k. Staff Software Engineer, Google Cloud Platforms, Senior Staff Software Engineer, Infrastructure, Principal Engineer, Developer Platform Systems, Senior Software Engineer, Mobile (Android), AR. Yes, we have tons of info on the HR websites and yes, there are steps you should take. Might as well fire those guys. If youve been at Level 62 longer than about 3 years MS may not be the best fit for you and you should probably be considering other options.kc. Going from Level 62 to Level 63 is more about EQ than IQ. When someone else is waiting on you for something, don't be the reason they can't get their shit done.4. See next bullet. I am happy to be an L63, trying to get to L64 so I can relate.How I got here (I started as an industry hire 61 about 5 years ago):1. Fourth, repeat ad infinitum. Mgmt, MSFT levels: CEO > VP > Partner(Director) > Principal > Sr. Eng > Eng 2 > Eng 1. > Where did you hear this? Senior Director of Sales NEXT50 2022 - 6 Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates I am thrilled to announce that I started a new position as a Senior Director Of sales at Next50.. If you have your mnanager in your pocket, you cna achieve greate heights in life. Don't be afraid to talk to your skip level manager regularly in such a situation, not to get promoted but because he can better help you grow.4. If you reach L63 during your time at Microsoft, especially if you started at L60 or below, you should celebrate. Chairman of the Board, Microsoft Corporation. The estimated base pay is $243,438 per year. I basically lost 5 years of growth due to a bad manager and my own unwillingness to own my career. Discussion: First off, I'm going to be hard-core about comments here. Seems like "director" in Microsoft is not really a level like it is in google or fb (not sure what it means). About Highly experienced director and business leader who has successfully operated at senior management level & currently serves as a non-executive director on the Board of a number of. You don't get your money by snatching it out of Google or Apple's hands, you get it by convincing your customers to hand it to you.Do you want to know why Vista is such an unmitigated disaster? for people, who might claim that they do all this and still cant progress.. dude, either you are in wrong group or you have not introspected / taken feedback well or you are missing the whole thing by a mile. I thought changing groups would help me get promoted faster however all it did was make me resart from ground zero with each group. I've been told HR looks for employees that have been at their level too long. I'm not looking for any off-topic comments let alone woe-be-me comments - remember that slap thing? They don't survive long while others who do little move up. In this testing times what will motivate the mgr to put you ahead of him/hers? When it comes to where you actually rank and what you get paid that part is all that matters. Granted, you have to live in the greater NYC area, but it's a great place to be. Related Searches:All Senior Director Salaries|All Microsoft Salaries. In my own experience, even after being a great developer for 2+ years, with straight 4.0 scores at that time, and despite having Dev Manager roles before Microsoft, I would be turned down on informationals for Dev Lead positions with the simple question: Have you been a Dev Lead at Microsoft? If you want to succeed at Microsoft (or anywhere else where you have a boss), the most important thing you can do is figure out exactly what your management wants from you and then make sure you deliver it in spades.Junior people often make the mistake of thinking this means "I will do my job to the best of my ability" and then they go off and work really REALLY hard at things their management doesn't find nearly as important as they do and so come review time these folks are *shocked* to hear that all of their blood, sweat and tears did not make the impression they'd hoped. Weirder sh*t has happened before. Know what is going to make your product succeed, know what is going to make your team succeed, know what part of that you can achieve. The L65 guys are expected to influence outcomes, strategy and best practices on their entire VP level groups. I give you the example from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/awaits "A busy day awaits" as evidence.So one legitimate missing punctuation mark, one matter of verbal interpretation, one popular idiom, and one completely correct phrase. I've been struggling with the elusive 59 -> 60 move for quite some time. "Your Recently Promoted L63 Peers"? Proficient in product delivery, business & cost transformation, supplier management, client relationships and growth opportunities Working extensively at senior board level to deliver high value . I spent 5 years on level 61. Be nice, and clear in your communications. What advice do you need? SAP, Go to company page * Stability at Microsoft is a two-edged sword. I am soliciting ideas to reduce cost in this blog. Thats a very helpful answer. Email@ elliereinker@gmail.com | Call@ 330-554-0249. No one wants an employee who is staying for the money -- and you don't want to be that employee, either. Yet, I know that a friend just got one. I basically just hoped that hard work would get me ahead. I am a troll. Chief Executive Officer and Director. Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. L65 took four years. "This is the lament of every person in every big company everywhere it's usually a combination of truth (most of us are capable of more than the roles we're currently filling) and hubris (if I had a nickel for ever junior person who over-estimated what they were capable of I'd be retired). "I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65. In short there are lot many ways to influence others and infect the best ones are not being a manager :). For some teams - especially those like Office with few departures release-to-release resulting in level compression - that's a rough bunch. Owning big features, knowledge about code base, ability to help your peers - irrelevant. While a manager can help coach you, and you can follow the advice in this post and comments (most of which are great, by the way), you have no way of knowing if there are 0 or 10 people also on the team doing the same things, ahead of you for the limited number of promotions available. I heard that promotion budgets are significantly reduced at below 65 level. Even if you don't leave, make no mistake, I'll be building a backfill slate for your role just in case. Lots of groundwork, considerable drama and leverage but eventually it got done. Seriously, your GM or VP owns the decision to do transparent titling. If your boss is saying "Yes, ready for promo now" and your skip is saying "No, not now" well, why? And when the time comes, putting you up for a promotion to L63 is the first time your boss will be challenged by your skip-level and by your Aunt and Uncles (your boss's peers) about one of your promotions. my recommendation is you take the offer if you've gone this far. work on your visibility. But in an organization this large, how do you avoid title inflation ? First let's set the expectations right for this quarter and possibly the next: The budgets for promos are shrunk almost everywhere. The key thing is finding the right team and manager, along with the comments you made. I also don't know if this is the first step towards a lay-off, but for now, it seems we'll have jobs for a few more months.Ugh, not good, not good at all. Think Locally: remember three years back when we talked about the book Corporate Confidential? It's a very rare thing that you'll find a manager who gives you the kind of actionable feedback you need to succeed without doing a whole lot of sleuthing and groundwork of your own to fill in the blanks. This is something that should happen on an ongoing basis.Unfortunately, it doesnt happen, and that is what frustrates a lot of people.Saying that you dont know what exactly an L63 is, but will know one when you see him is a big cop-out. Thanks for starting this. This is a great topic! "There is no greater de-motivator than a reward system that is perceived to be unfair. Of course not. Don't spend so much time worrying about the next notch on the ladder: your goal should be to learn new things, to get something cool done and to find things to do that are fun for you.2. Don't be the roadblock. Rather nice site you've got here. Microsoft Tips for getting them on your side:1) Ask for Exceeded. Obviously, this is advice that you may not apply during the current hiring freeze, but keep it on your mind for the future.- At times the focus on the level may not be the most important strategy in the long term. Sometimes leaving MS is good. You don't get your money by snatching it out of Google or Apple's hands, you get it by convincing your customers to hand it to you.Do you want to know why Vista is such an unmitigated disaster? When I finally figured out how to play well with others and was able to show some major cross-group gains in addition to my own leet prod dev skills, that's when I became a 63.63 to 64 was a bit of a slog -- I'd say more like a full-frontal assault on lazy management, actually :). You havent [sic] seen nothing [sic] yet. I've lucked out a bit by working on a key project for our group and division, although a lot of that was due to my own contributions. Dont compete with them. I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. Much longer if new leadership comes from outside MS. Don't perform flawlessly to the above 70+ pieces of feedback only to see the churn above you. I myself am a L62 on the cusp of a midyear promo after 18 months. Thanks. (1) Oh, please. Right now I am 56. After all, if you think you are already ready, and your manager doesn't, there is probably some way you can improve that you don't understand -- this is something you want to figure out.6. I've changed jobs but came back to the group that's been the most supportive. However, I think this is the first point where we see a non-trivial number of folks plateau. Would they give you the level if you were not already a Microsoft employee? I know devs who got in at the wrong level and paying the price because they didnt negotiate their level correctly when they joined. The average salary for a Senior Director is $170,707 per year in United States, which is 65% lower than the average Microsoft salary of $500,742 per year for this job. Leverage your professional network, and get hired. What an achievement! This employer has claimed their Employer Profile and is engaged in the Glassdoor community. Why? So most new hires at MS are L63 by default and they obviously don't have to work at it :).I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65.I would not give most of this advice to our campus hires as any kind of roadmap. I moved around 3 teams before I found one where I really enjoyed the technology and the people, and here I've flourished.So forget all the whining about politics and crap. This slighlty contradicts some of the other posts. Got lucky on that one!!!! If youve capped out at Level 62 then MS is probably not a great fit for you. Amazon You might have the Microsoft Senior Career Stage Profile in front of you all marked up and broken into more sections in OneNote, but which ones matter most to your team? Staff Software Engineer, Google Cloud Platforms, Senior Staff Software Engineer, Infrastructure, Principal Engineer, Developer Platform Systems, Senior Software Engineer, Mobile (Android), AR. My biggest struggle has been getting good feedback on where I need to grow. This way you have a more clear understanding of the seniority of that particular position and if you search for a group manager you will see the seniority distribution. As a L64 I find getting to 65 quite a wall. "I'm in the 61 bucket and currently struggling with my team for many months. How about a thread on the current hiring/moving freeze, or on surviving the New Ice Age? agree with positive suggestions here. To the person worried about being same level for 3.5 years don't sweat it. The job level for Technical Fellow starts at 80 and goes beyond. Your commitments should already provide you with milestones to set as your goals. I made sure I was the fastest, most efficient, and best bug fixer. You almost always have to earn it. If you have a good manager he/she will ensure the relevant peers know all about it. "haven't seen nothing yet" is a fairly common construction. I'm a level 66 dev (architect). If you want to advance and you are not a "favorite underling", your first and most important job is this: figure out how to become a "favorite underling". I hope Mini returns from his vacation soon :(The Windows division has a large number of people that were promoted to "Senior" PM/Test/Dev in the past year. That's why Microsoft is pissing away the monopoly that you inherited from IBM. As someone who left MS @ L63 - and supposedly tracking strongly to L64 - and who has seen a lot of questionable promos occur, I think it's fair to say that the rise to "Senior" follows a slighly skewed distribution curve in that in the largest bucket case, you can probably see that L63 was warranted.However, on either end of the distribution, by which I mean people who easily obtained it and people who seriously struggled to obtain it, there are some disturbing anomalies that are difficult to explain away.You might say, "I can live with the corner cases" and I would agree that optimizing for those isn't worthwhile.BUT! I'm not even thinking about level 63 at this point. I will mis-direct and confuse you with hearsay. Candidates should have a Ph.D. in Physics and a strong commitment to undergraduate education. May 2008: Gold Star. I would love to be above 60much less 63. The Senior Director provides leadership, establishes operational objectives, policies, procedures and works plans and oversee the program to ensure maximum profitability through efficient service delivery, effective client management, and strategic allocation of resources. I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. (Not). They have commitments to grow their employees. Learning Curves and Disillusioned Learners: psychologists have known for years that skill acquisition tends to follow a typical learning curve. By contrast, most directors don't have their own budgets, but need approvals from their VP to do just about anything. It doesn't matter what you want - you aren't the one deciding when you get promoted. (this is never a bad idea anyway) Then, if you are doing as good a job as he, he will want you as a peer in level, if not, then he can help you grow. But, if you have the possibility of finding a position that you will really enjoy, where your goals and those of Microsoft are fairly close, then your long-term potential will be higher. Why are we doing x and not y? How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. Finally I got involved and had a one/one with the employee during which I asked him why do you continually insist on doing Y when your mgr asks you to do X? I nearly fell of my chair when he said because I want to get promoted and I know that to get promoted I need to do Y. I came in at 58 (9) and having been through a) I wish I had gone through b). I changed 3 groups at Microsoft. I want them productive and about career success at Microsoft, especially your thoughts about achieving L63. So, for those of you who are in orgs where it's 'easy' to get to L63 or L64 - think about transferring out BEFORE you get too high a level and paint yourself into a corner. I think talking about level just confuses people as beyond US there is a different level system!L63 in the US is Senior (Level 60 in most of the other countries), well, moving to Senior is not such a big thing if you have experience, with more than 10 years in the industry I was hired at this level, now Senior II is just a matter of continuing contributing but the different comes to Principal (or lead), here is where you need to shine in order to succeed.Recommendation: Work not only towards your commitments but your managers as well As a former L65 (left MSFT about two months ago) I can say you are right on when it comes to understanding where your boss stands. As long as that's the case, I doubt anything would change.The method that this is done is troubling also. You have the right stuff to succeed and Microsoft is very happy with you. A mistake was a huge cost. We have covered both technical and management track at Microsoft. There are not a lot of options at that point. Given all that, the two things that are key to promotion are:1) Your relationship with your skip level manager. Also, never ascribe to malfeasance what may simply be due to incompetence. It turns out that typically your immediate manager has little control, it's all decided at higher levels. I think folks like that are the one-offs who slipped by and most likely (given the scrutiny I see more and more) certainly wouldn't slip by today. Eventually you have to make that leap or you arent ever going to get your hands on that other bar. Without soft skills, you can't make 64 and certainly no chance at 65.I've seen many people transfer into MCS, level up, and then transfer out basically using it as a boost. There were times when I was promoted more slowly than I probably could have been, but I am very happy with where I am now, and I am still growing.
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